👀 Google APM: Application to Offer – iykyk

APM @ Google: Joseph Choi

UMich, Google APMM, Startups

Hi there 👋 — Who are you and what’s your background?

Hi, I’m Joseph! I’m currently an APM at Google, working on YouTube.

For college, I went to the University of Michigan and studied Economics with a concentration in Computer Science and Information Analysis. After graduating, I first went to the Google APMM program in management, and after a year there, I transferred over to the APM program.

Outside of work, I’m also the co-founder of iykyk.careers!

First and Second Rotations

How is the program structured, for those that are unfamiliar?

The Google APM program has two rotations, one year each.

First Rotation: You get matched with a team mostly randomly. You can give some preferences, like whether you want to be on a larger team that's more established that has more PMs, or if you want to be on a smaller team that's working on a smaller, scrappier project. You can also give preferences about whether you want a more engineering, business, or design focused role, , but it’s mostly random.

Second Rotation: You have a lot more say in the team you’re on, and most people who graduate from the APM program after the two years will stay in the second team that they land on.

Startup Culture and 20% Projects

Is there anything the landing page doesn't tell us about the APM program?

Yeah, I think there's an interesting culture around the APM program.

Google APM does have a lot of people who are interested in careers in product management, but if you're interested in startups, a lot of the participants of the APM program have aspirations to start startups someday. The entrepreneurial spirit is sort of an unsaid culture.

I think it’s partly because when college students want to start startups, but want to work in big tech first, APM is a program they see as a good first career move.

Google also has an innovative and entrepreneurial culture, even within the company. For example, we have 20% projects, where anyone who works at Google is allowed to work on other projects within the company outside of their core work. I think these experimental projects encourage innovation.

Internal Transfer, Side Projects, & Interview Tricks

What do you think made you stand out as an applicant and is there a recruitment strategy that nobody is doing right now, but should be?

I actually had a really hard time recruiting for product management roles in college. I didn't start getting more interviews until I was an APMM at Google. I think being internal helped me get my application noticed.

Here’s some advice I’d give:

Get your foot in the door: Even if you don't get into a rotational program right out of college, it's totally worth it to try to get your foot in the door in any role within a company that you want to work – it can help you internally transfer later down the line.

Side projects: I think my entrepreneurial and side project experiences also helped me to stand out. I didn’t have any official product management internships, and I think that put me at a disadvantage compared to candidates who already had PM internships in the past. So in my interviews I talked about some of the entrepreneurial side projects that I had done in the past/College and tied them back to being a PM.

E.G. During college I assembled a team of nine engineers and designers to try to build a dating app. We went through the whole user research and product development process, and I was able to talk about that as if I was a PM. So this was sort of my equivalent of a PM internship.

Interview trick I realized: Interviews are with actual human beings and the way you answer your questions can be more flexible than you think.

If they ask you a case question about product design, you don't have to just go through the basic boring framework. When I was answering some of these case questions, I would try to stand out by inserting stories about my own past experiences (as long as they were relevant).

E.G. If they asked me about how I would build this XYZ product as a Google PM, I would answer the question, but then I would also insert stories and say, “also, I’ve actually worked on something pretty similar and encountered similar problems. Here are the insights from that experience that I’d apply to this scenario”.

Most people only bring up personal stories when they're explicitly asked to do so in behavioral questions, like, “Tell me about a time when you did XYZ.” But, they can be helpful in other situational questions as well.

Humans like stories. It's really just about showing that you are qualified to do the job, and you should think of any way possible to convey that.

Interview Prep: In terms of interview prep, I have found Product Alliance’s Flagship Google PM Interview Course very useful.

First off, they have a helpful list of frequently-asked PM interview questions collected from past candidates, which is kept up to date every few weeks. This is particularly helpful when you are interviewing, since you can get insights into what sorts of questions are being asked.

To help with crafting answers, they have 70+ videos that show you what top-notch answers look like. This makes it very easy to see how candidates get evaluated during their interviews and teaches what to do or avoid during PM interviews.

Finally, they have strategic overview resources on Google and 20+ other companies, which help you understand the company’s product roadmap and future trajectory, and serve as a good starting point for coming up with product ideas in interviews. The best part is that, unlike other resources that charge you a monthly subscription, they give lifetime access to all members, so you can access new and relevant interview prep resources every time you interview throughout your career.

I'm actually in touch with the Product Alliance team, and I was able to secure additional discounts for iykyk readers. Use [JKC1-LD23J-PA50] code to get an additional $50 off!

Getting your Foot in the Door

How did you initially get into the APMM program at Google and do you have advice for someone trying to get their foot into the door?

So first thing, check out my APMM Guide, which is also on iykyk.careers

A quick summary: In my APMM interviews I emphasized a lot more of my marketing-focused side projects. The APMM program is also rotational and before that I was working at Salesforce in a business operations role – so, completely unrelated to product marketing. But it was a big company which was a way to get my foot in the door.

This question goes so many layers deep, though. Because you can always ask, Well, how did you get the job at Salesforce? And it's like, well, I got an internship at Salesforce which led to the return offer.

And how do you get an internship at Salesforce? Getting a junior year internship is SO hard and a lot of it does come down to luck.

When I was applying to junior year internships, I think what made me stand out was also just side projects – I did tons of side projects throughout college. To get that internship I just talked a lot about how I built an ecommerce business, how I built a clothing brand with my friends, and how I previously interned at a digital media startup.

With “unofficial” experiences like these, it’s all about how you tell the story and show that you gained relevant skills to the job you’re applying to.

Salary Expectations and Progression

What is the average starting salary (or salary range)for program participants and what does the salary progression look like once you’ve graduated from the program?

The APM base salary is 130k + bonus and stock.

Once you get promoted to PM after the APM program, that's when your salary starts to become negotiable. So there's a whole range of salaries once you graduate from the program.

PM, Side Projects, Goals

What’s your next play after graduating from this program and how has this program impacted your 5-10 year career plan?

I don't have any concrete plans for now – I think there are a lot of cool teams at Google and I could definitely see myself continuing to be a PM at Google once I graduate from the APM program. I could also see myself doing other things involving startups or other side projects.

In a way, Google APM is almost like a second college. In college, you have these four years set out for you and there's a lot of certainty about what the next X number of years is going to look like. So I think this program is allowing me to set clearer goals, because I have a timeline to set them.

Some of those goals:

1. Learn how to build products, which is the main purpose of the APM program. One of the core skills is knowing how to work with engineers and designers. I think that'll be a useful skill to have in the future.

2. Network with fellow APMs, and learn more about different areas of the tech industry since they're all working on different teams.

3. Decide on Grad school/MBA. This two year span is almost like a time box for me to learn more about MBA programs, network with people who could potentially be recommenders, and just make that decision.